Unlocking the Architectural Mind: A Secret Look into How to Sell Architects and Designers
Learn what Architects & Designers need to specify your products.
UpSpring's Susan Fernandez and Austin Berry interview David Shove-Brown and David Tracz, founders of the architecture firm 3877 to gain unique insights into how they select building materials and architectural products for commercial and residential projects.
Watch the full interview above, or read the transcript below.
Austin Berry:
Today we'd like you to meet David Shove-Brown and David Tracz, the principles of Studio 3877, an architecture firm that has been disrupting the industry with their unique approach to design. As best friends with a shared passion for great design, they bring over two decades of experience and different perspectives to the table. Their multidisciplinary business has earned recognition, including being listed on the Washington Business Journal's best places to work list for three consecutive years, and becoming the first Washington DC architecture firm to be B Corp certified in 2020. Welcome the Dave's.
David Shove-Brown:
Thanks.
David Tracz:
Thank you. Appreciate it. Good to be here.
Susan Fernandez:
Thank you so much for being with us. We are going to hop right in. Can you tell us what factors you consider when you are selecting products or materials for a project? What is your criteria?
David Shove-Brown:
My answer today is going to be slightly different than it was several years ago, but it's going to be based on performance, it's going to be based on price, it's going to be based on availability.
David Tracz:
Yeah. Yeah. I think the performance is going to come, it depends on the material, how we're using it, what it is. If it's a waterproofing material, obviously performance is going to be high on the radar. If it's a decorative material, maybe performance and look might be more balanced requirements. All of those pieces, but certainly price and availability is paramount these days.
Susan Fernandez:
What frustrates you when you're dealing with building material companies? I know that supply chain issues aren't something that everyone has control over, obviously, given the pandemic, but what do they do that frustrates you? How could they improve the way they sell to architects?
David Tracz:
I think just being realistic about the timeline.
David Shove-Brown:
Exactly what I was going to say.
David Tracz:
I think a lot of times, I'm going to quote a general contractor that I recently had a phone call with that he basically said he wanted to kill optimism in his office because everybody was too optimistic and it led to problems. The reality of the situation became the bigger problem. I think it's just making sure we understand where the real risks are. I think a lot of times manufacturers try to be optimistic about the timeline they can deliver things, how effectively they can deliver things, and I don't think it's a mean thing. I don't think it's malicious by any stretch, but I think there are a lot of times when the realistic components are just left off.
Austin Berry:
You talked a bit too about really needing some of that in depth product knowledge. How durable is it going to be, what is the price, what is the timeline? What sort of resources do you look to evaluate those things effectively and make sure that you can find the answers you need?
David Shove-Brown:
Let me clarify. What we use now or what we'd like to see our team use? Those are different things.
Austin Berry:
Give me both. I mean, what does a perfect world look like for you?
David Shove-Brown:
Well, a perfect world is having product reps for manufacturers that know the products well enough to talk about performance, to talk about availability, but also to correct us and say maybe this material isn't the one that you're wanting for this application or for this use. And quite frankly, like Dave said, just be honest with the whole situation and say, look, this isn't available for the next number of months or this price point is too high or... The challenge is that over the last several years, a lot of product reps have switched companies. It's been a two-step where everybody's sort of rotated one company to the left. And so we're not always sure exactly who the product rep is, and in some cases, they're not as in-depthly connected to the product. By default, we end up spending too much time on the internet.
While websites might have the right information, the amount of time that it takes to just dig through and get to a performance spec or lighting calculations or anything like that, it's just quite frankly a waste of time if you've got a great rep that you can pick up the phone and go, hey, here's what I need. This is what we're looking at. Help me.
David Tracz:
I'd also say trying to understand the market and costs. I think a lot of times manufacturers offer some range of this is what it costs to purchase and deliver a material, but the reality is we have to deal with that product installed. And I think there's a big disconnect a lot of times. We were recently working on an office building conversion to a residential and the products that were selected for the exterior, when we met with the manufacturer, the rep was very descriptive of how much the cost of the material was. But when we got to the general contractor, that price doubled because the reality of the installation was that it was two times what the product was, and it just made for a little bit of a disconnect because we're presenting a product at a value only to find out later that from the GC that it's really two, maybe two and a half times that for the installation cost. I think that's a tough thing for them to follow because they don't know all the ins and outs of the subcontractor market, but knowing a little bit more would be helpful.
Austin Berry:
In that case, do you find there are instances where having uninformed or reps that are simply just not up to date on the most recent product specs or are not as fluent in the product itself, does that ever make or break a spec for you?
David Tracz:
I'm sure it would. Or worse, it gets to the end of the project and it's been specified and we find out later that it doesn't do quite what it was supposed to do in some places.
David Shove-Brown:
Mm-hmm.
David Tracz:
That could be a challenge for sure.
David Shove-Brown:
Well, and it's not necessarily something where you need the information immediately. Having a rep that simply says, I'll find out for you and get back to you, is great. And reps, they're salespeople. The idea is to make the sale. And so unfortunately, there are instances when the sale is more important than the long term, which is definitely a bummer. But the reps that we've known for a long time and have been really supportive are the ones that correct us and say no, it looks like it's going to do what you want it to do, but there's another material that's a better material or something that's going to perform on a better scale than what you're looking at. And for us, that's incredible. That's saves us a lot of pain in the long run.
David Tracz:
Yeah.
Susan Fernandez:
When you were speaking earlier about that there's a lot of information online and you don't have the time to dig through it, I'm wondering about the generational divide that we're seeing in firms. Those who would rather reach out to a rep and then those who want to find everything online.
Austin Berry:
Mm-hmm.
Susan Fernandez:
Are your younger teams feeling like they should have access to everything online? Are they able to get things without contacting reps?
David Shove-Brown:
How long is this call?
David Tracz:
I think if you put it on Instagram, they'd all find it instantaneously. I think there's a delicate balance. I think there's a lot of conversation in our office about using a phone as a phone and whether that will help them or not. Personally, that's something that I feel comfortable doing, but I don't know that all of our staff always feel comfortable doing. It is a little bit of a divide in that sense.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah. I mean you have to look at it and we can dive into the sociology of it, but you have to look at the younger generation that we've hired have never not known the internet. And the internet's always been a source of information. And so the natural for us, we're looking in the Encyclopedia Britannica for information on lumen level, but for our younger generation, the automatic response is to start on the internet and start to dig through webpages and things while we came from a time when you called the rep or you called the manufacturer immediately because we remember Sweet's catalogs to get in and try to find that information.
Yes, it's a generational thing, but it's not such a generational thing that you're too lazy or too scared to pick up the phone. It's just how the information's been available their entire lives. It becomes sort of second nature to go, I'll just get online and I'll find it. The problem stems from how deep the information is buried in a website where great, if you can go to the website and the lumen levels are right up on the first page, fantastic. When I watch you go and surf for 30 minutes trying to dig through and find that information, then you go, okay, well, you could have saved yourself 25 minutes by calling somebody.
David Tracz:
Right.
Austin Berry:
You mentioned earlier, Instagram. Do you find that some of your younger employees are really looking on Instagram and using that as a resource to find ideas and inspiration in products?
David Tracz:
Maybe to an extent. I really was being a little bit sarcastic about that, but I do know that it is a good resource for them for social components, so why not use that in a way that can be beneficial? I follow a lot of other design firms on Instagram, I follow a lot of chefs on Instagram. I find it to be a good way to track and see what's going on in the food world, so why wouldn't it be a good resource for those kind of things?
David Shove-Brown:
Well, it is interesting, and quite frankly our conversations on the PR side of social media is, not that we're opposed to having a TikTok account or things of that sort, it's one, I don't think either of us know how to use it, but again, back to the generational thing where the generation of decision makers are now looking. As much as you don't want to think that somebody's getting on TikTok and seeing a material and spec, there could be inspiration, there could be information there that could be readily available that actually is a resource and not just hacking their personal data. All of those things could be useful tools.
David Tracz:
Yeah. For sure.
Austin Berry:
Well, and that brings us nicely to our next question is how do you stay up to date on the latest building products and technologies? What resources do you guys use, what resources do other and younger members of your team use? What do you find to be the most effective?
David Shove-Brown:
I still read magazines.
David Tracz:
I didn't want to admit that, but I still read magazines too.
David Shove-Brown:
I mean, for me it's that component of looking through the pages and looking at work that maybe our peers or colleagues or cohort are doing or looking at other pieces of inspiration. Certainly looking at social media and seeing people traveling and going and looking at an interesting project and then going, all right, I need to dig into this a little bit more and find out what this material is or how it was built or things of that sort. But for me, it's definitely a graphic thing that leads to looking for more information. And certainly I very much enjoy conversations with our reps that really know their products and say, hey, you should really check this new thing out and this is something really exciting. And to me, that's a great resource.
David Tracz:
Yeah.
Austin Berry:
Thinking more too about that inspiration seeking and product selection process, as you're kind of having those internal conversations, how are you balancing cost, performance and aesthetics when you're looking for and selecting products for a project?
David Tracz:
Yeah. I think that's a big challenge. I think a lot of times what we'll do is this is what I do. I tend to save materials and keep them in the back of my mind as a cool option for something and then start to work on certain projects and then go, oh, well what fits the bill of the cool options for something might fit into this option. I think a lot of people do that. Sometimes that's where the money part can come into play because maybe you need to leverage that thing is so expensive, you may not be able to do other things around it or you have an understanding of what its overall value is and maybe you can use it one time and that's the high dollar moment. I'll use an example. I think Meveta, we use this Bover light fixture, which is a very expensive light.
It's actually not even lit, it's just a wood thing that has light above it. And when that fixture became a focal element, then that dictates other things around it that we can or can't use with it. It's kind of that same idea, keeping a little thing in the background or a list of opportunities.
David Shove-Brown:
But you also have to understand with your clients what's their initial budget, what's the length of whether it's a restaurant in their lease or what's the next renovation cycle for the hotel? Understanding the life cycle cost of something that you're putting in versus simply saying, okay, it costs X dollars at the onset, but if you're looking at a space that's got a 10-year lease, now maybe we can start to look longer term at that and make some decisions. Like Dave said, putting some higher initial money into something, but over the long run it's going to last and it's going to perform really well. Those things all play into it.
Susan Fernandez:
Can you tell me about a time when you had to make a difficult decision between two competing products or materials for a project?
David Shove-Brown:
It's called Tuesday or Wednesday.
David Tracz:
Yeah, I mean I think that happens all the time. We're in a place where you're using a tile or another tile against each other a lot of times. Maybe it's not necessarily differing products that are used for different things, but a lot of times, yeah, tiles are great comparison or fabrics are great comparisons because you know that they have the same or similar performance and maybe you just need a certain color way for a certain thing. And I'd say it probably starts with they both have to have the durability and maybe some specific requirements around performance and then both products need to have a certain look or feel to them and then potentially the next step might be which one is less expensive, and then it might be which one can get to the site soonest.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah.
David Tracz:
That's kind of how that process might go. And it may be that then we get to the bottom and we go, 18 weeks, all right, let's go back. Is the next product option more expensive, but it can get there in 10 weeks? Maybe suddenly that becomes a higher priority scenario.
David Shove-Brown:
In some cases, it happens where there was a meeting this morning where you're looking at one material and the lead time is such that it's not viable and rather than go in circles of us going and saying, here's the next choice, we're simply going to the subcontractor going, okay, what can you get? What do you have in a certain price point from certain... Tell us so that we can at least narrow it down from there versus just spinning our wheels based on going back to the library or calling reps again and getting samples again. Let's just cut out the middleman.
David Tracz:
And arguably it kicks the can back to the subcontractor who kicks the can back to the rep anyway in the grand scheme of things. Just maybe a different rep.
Susan Fernandez:
Does that apply to something that maybe isn't seen when there's not an aesthetic component to it? I'm thinking something in the building envelope, some kind of hidden product. Is that just go on performance or does it still fall into all of that criteria of time availability?
David Tracz:
Yeah. I mean I think performance is always the baseline, right, especially for a building material. If it has to be weatherproof in some way, waterproof, vapor proof in some way, performance is first and foremost because nobody likes to get sued. But then the next step is going to be, I think cost probably is going to have a component of it and availability because again, construction projects have a set schedule and if it doesn't get to that job site in that timeframe, how do we adjust accordingly? And likely if it's a building product like that where it's so specific and it needs to be a part of the building envelope, there is a sequence of events that it needs to slip into or it's not going to be in the project.
Austin Berry:
Thinking about that, talking about selecting on durability, time, those kind of parameters, is sustainability a consideration for you at all when comparing products together?
David Shove-Brown:
Absolutely. I mean for us it's sort of inherent in some of the selection process that as part of B corp and part of who we are, you're looking for a material that's going to do good and that certainly plays into some of the selection process and if you can get a product that's got a, and this goes back to the rep thing. Telling me that this carpet is environmentally friendly, it's carbon, it's not environmentally friendly. Understanding what about a material or what about a product is sustainable is really important so that we can weigh that and weigh that value, understand the benefit of putting that thing in.
David Tracz:
Yeah, for sure. I think it goes back to the performance piece. Sustainability is a part of performance now.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah. I joke about carpet, but understanding of what it is now and what it could be. I think there was a period of time when the world was going to be paved with park benches because that's what everything was getting made into. Understanding what it could be as a sort of next life material is really important.
Austin Berry:
Very interesting. Once you've specified a product for a project, have you ever then had to change that specification mid-project and what does that look like and why might that happen?
David Tracz:
Yeah. I mean it probably means it was either VE'd in the value engineering process and sometimes in our experience, there are sort of two different courses of VE. There's we're over $20 and we need to change one tile to another tile because we can save $20 or there's the million dollar overage where we need to take that tile out and replace it with paint. And because that's sort of the next step down on the cost scale. But I think on the performance side of things, my hope would be that we would've vetted a product to make sure that it performs in the way that we need it to and it wouldn't need to get swapped out. It's either at that point going to be a money or a time thing.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah, I mean occasionally too, depending on how long the design process is, it could very well be that you're selecting the material or selecting a product early enough in the design process, but by the time you actually get to construction, it's sold out. It was available at that time, but fast-forward six months or a year and something's changed in that supply chain and it could be gone and you've got to pivot and make some quick decisions so that you can keep moving.
David Tracz:
Yeah. And there are plenty of times where that has happened, where products have been discontinued, fabrics, wall coverings, those tend to be the ones that go in and out of style so quickly that by the time something gets ordered, it's no longer being produced.
Susan Fernandez:
At that point, let's say you're doing a new build or a renovation, a material doesn't get there or it gets there and it's not up to what it's supposed to do. Then do you rely on the GC on the trade or does it go right back to you to reselect that product?
David Shove-Brown:
All of the above. Well, I think at that point it's got to be a team effort. Everybody's got to go in their different directions and subcontractors got to talk to their rep who's different than our rep. We've got to talk to our rep and get as much information as humanly possible and try to find an ideal solution. I think in our minds it doesn't make a ton of sense to just put it on one person and say, okay, you go handle it, and everybody else will sit around and wait. I think we can divide and conquer and come up with a relatively quick solution by using our resources.
David Tracz:
It's to everybody's benefit at that stage that we solve the problem as quickly as possible.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah.
Susan Fernandez:
This is maybe kind of an obvious question, but how do you incorporate building codes at, you obviously have to meet building codes and regulatory requirements into your specification. If they change, how are you finding out about them? Are the reps telling you, okay, now you have to use it in this way or you have to specify it and use a different adhesive, or how does this affect you guys?
David Tracz:
Well, the good news is the building codes take a long time to change.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah.
David Tracz:
We got that going for us. It's generally on a three-year cycle and then most jurisdictions take another two to three years to adopt a building code and they'll likely modify it in that process. I think at that stage, if it's something that specific, we would definitely be asking the rep for the product to give us some advice on how this meets or exceeds the code requirement that might be coming up.
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah.
David Tracz:
Typically, that's probably an insulation piece or something that might affect a thermal component. Those are the things that change that might affect us.
David Shove-Brown:
Some sort of fire code, something or other.
Austin Berry:
Mm-hmm.
David Tracz:
Yeah. But the good news is that stuff takes so long to change. It's a slow moving thing. We would hopefully know what's a problem before it hits us in the face.
Austin Berry:
Thinking along those lines of these hypotheticals, how do you handle client requests for specific products or materials, especially ones that you might not be familiar with?
David Shove-Brown:
Talk to the reps. No, I mean again, it's about understanding. And so a client comes and says, we want to use X product, Y product. The first thing we want to do is talk to the reps and get samples and say, let's get it in our hands. Let's learn as much as we can about the performance and the cost and availability and all of those things so that we can go back to the client and say, hey, here's the scenario that it's in budget or it's not in budget. It's going to do what you think or want or need and have all of that in hand rather than just simply say, oh sure, we'll just plug that in and hope for the best. It's really imperative that you learn anything and everything you can about it before you put it in your drawings.
David Tracz:
Yeah, for sure.
Austin Berry:
That actually brings me to a good point. Let's talk samples because that is a huge thing and it's hugely important to the process. Do you guys have a library in your office? How many samples do you keep at hand? How many times are you asking out for samples? Are you going through the reps, the website? What services are you using? Talk to me about the role of samples in your process.
David Shove-Brown:
I think it's important to note that we moved two months ago with a large component of that move to increase the size of our library.
David Tracz:
Yes.
David Shove-Brown:
To have more samples, to have more products on hand and we're very deliberate about the samples that we get. We don't just sort of let everybody into the library and they can just shove binders up there. It's reaching out to specific reps and to specific products to get those in hand so that we have them as a resource. Our library is a wonderful disaster because it's used constantly. We've got a color meter, we've got a color temperature changing light that we've put in so we can see different materials in different lighting conditions for that purpose alone. The sample that we get here is going to look different than the sample in somebody's office. We want to be as prepared as possible to go in and know what the entire package is going to look like.
David Tracz:
Yeah.
Austin Berry:
You talked about being very careful and intentional about what's in your library. How are you making those decisions? What's the make or break for what ends up in the 3877 library and what doesn't?
David Shove-Brown:
Cash.
David Tracz:
Yeah, exactly. Kickbacks. The bags of cash. I think we rely on our design teams, both the architecture and the interiors team, to let us know what we're working on right now, looking at what we have upcoming and then just looking at the product and seeing if it's something that falls into when I was talking earlier about that category of I might want to use this someday. I think there's certainly some baseline product. We're always going to have some upholstery pieces from certain vendors. I think we're always going to have leathers and laminate and wall covering and components like that. But I think what we start to look at is what styles do we see us working on, what directions do we see those things going? And then it's a matter of just filtering a little bit through it and utilizing what we can in those instances. And then there are two major design shows on either ends of the year and we leverage those for times where we want to see something new or we also have product reps coming in the office two to three days a week to show us the new exciting shining thing.
And I think we leverage a lot of distribution like Material Bank. I think for a long time we were getting Material Bank boxes every day, three to four a day. And I think that's settled a little bit now that our library's a little bit bigger. But I could see that picking up a little bit too.
David Shove-Brown:
I mean if we had our druthers, every material, every fixture we are specifying for a project, our client would've seen and held a real sample of it. A real sample of the light fixture, a real sample of the faucet or all of those things because you want to get it in front of people to understand this is what it looks like, this is how it performs, does it do what you want it to do and look the way that you want it to look?
David Tracz:
Right.
David Shove-Brown:
We are all for samples.
Susan Fernandez:
Interesting. Do your design teams go on websites and request samples in lieu of reps or are you always getting it through a rep or through something like Material Bank or Swatch Box?
David Tracz:
I don't know that we've used Swatch Box, but I think that where they can, if they know the rep in the area and they're comfortable with them, they'll call the rep first, I think. Now, if you had asked me that question a year ago, I'd say they'd go to Material Bank in a second, but we've been trying to make a big effort to let more and more reps into the office. I think that's made a big difference, and just familiarity. And to Dave's point earlier, everybody's kind of done a little bit of a shuffle. Sometimes you got to figure out who's where.
David Shove-Brown:
We're lucky that our office is in an area of town that there's a dozen other firms within five or six blocks. For a rep, it's great. They're happy to bring down a sample to you the next day because they can also hit three other firms or four other firms. And so you could have as quick, if not quicker service and delivery then by using a website or Material Bank on cases just based on what a rep has on hand.
David Tracz:
Yeah, for sure.
Austin Berry:
You mentioned too earlier the two kind of big trade shows that you guys are looking at. Are there any other shows that you keep an eye on?
Susan Fernandez:
And can you tell us what those are, the two trade shows you like to go to?
David Shove-Brown:
I'm going to jump in immediately. I think for us, yes, the trade shows are important, but we also do some of the smaller events, some of the resource and BD match and some of those sort of speed dating kind of things where one of our team can go and bounce around and meet two dozen manufacturers and see product in a two-day period. That for us could be, depending on who the manufacturer, almost better than some of the trade shows because of that 15 or 20 minute one-on-one time, being able to actually establish a relationship and go, okay, now I know who I'm calling and it's not just a 1-800 number. I know I've established that rapport.
David Tracz:
Yeah.
Susan Fernandez:
Are your clients asking you to shorten time spans and reduce waste? Did they come to you with something like, can we build in a more modular way? Can we do some offsite construction? How do they talk to you about this?
David Tracz:
I mean, I think we're actually talking to a residential client that was looking to do a series of offsite construction components, but all of that, I think, it's more about trying to save time to make more money. And I think in the grander scheme of things, that's what it's really coming back to is it's how do I get a supposedly better product in a shorter period of time at a lesser cost. And we'll see how this pans out, we're just talking to this person for the first time. And I think we've done one other project [inaudible 00:33:35].
David Shove-Brown:
Yeah. We've done modular construction before, but I mean certainly everybody wants everything faster, less expensive, higher performing for every project. Within that framework, it's setting the groundwork early to understand what our, we'd like to get involved during lease negotiation with our clients so that we can look at the timeline that they have in their lease so that we're understanding construction time. We're backing it up so we know when they have to be open, we know when they have to start construction. And so understanding then the timeline to get certain materials and make certain decisions to fit within that, all of it sort of plays in. In some cases, there was a period of time was a way back when when we weren't running around going, we can't get any case goods that you could in fact get case goods early. And then you have to the trouble of where do you store them, what is that like as a component?
And so making sure you've got the right timing of things, getting something faster doesn't mean it's going to get installed any sooner. It may mean that it's sitting somewhere waiting to get damaged. All of that plays into the entire construction process.
Susan Fernandez:
That's really interesting, and something I don't think that gets discussed much. In terms of this kind of trying to streamline the way that we design and build and be more efficient and be more sustainable, a lot of people are arcing to use design builds because they feel it's very integrated. They feel the architect has as much skin in the game as to how it's actually constructed and the budget and remaining really true to that design intent all the way down to the last detail and not being kind of like, here's your plan, see you later. Do you hear any of that? And I know that's not how you guys work. You are right down to every detail, but do you hear any of this when you talk to clients?
David Tracz:
Well, we are doing some residential work as design builds in a couple of places and that has been pretty effective. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but I think it goes pretty well. 'Cause you do have a camaraderie with the contractor. It's not quite as adversarial, it's just about getting the product done at the price that was agreed to.
David Shove-Brown:
Well, and we actually prefer to have contractors on board early for all of our projects. It's not necessarily a design build where you're working underneath the contractors umbrella, but having that teammate on board early that is giving feedback through the design process in terms of timing, in terms of availability, in terms of cost, I have a little bit of an ethical question with some of the design build because if the architect and the contractor are in bed together, who's representing the client? For us, it's working very closely with a contractor early on and everybody has the goal of serving the client well. You're getting the benefit of that relationship, you're getting the benefit of ongoing pricing and availability and scheduling information, and the client is the recipient of all of that. And it's not just one team versus the client.
Austin Berry:
Thank you guys so much to Dave and Dave from 3877. You guys can be found at 3877.design. Thank you so much for your time today.
David Shove-Brown:
We have an awesome new website. You should check it out. It quite frankly kicks ass.