The Power of Reinvesting in Our Communities
In this episode, Jay Valgora, Founder and Principal at STUDIO V Architecture, and Majora Carter, CEO of Majora Carter Group, an urban revitalization, strategy, and real estate group firm, explore the importance of community reinvestment and the power of design to transform neglected spaces into vibrant, thriving places. Our case study is Bronxlandia, a community-led initiative in the South Bronx that aims to revitalize a neighborhood through the creation of a new public park and support for local businesses.
The Design Board, by UpSpring, is a proud member of SANDOW Design Group's SURROUND Podcast Network, home to the architecture and design industry’s premier shows.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to The Design Board, a podcast created by the team at UpSpring that focuses on design, development and everything in between. We invite innovators in our industry and explore topics that support your growth in every way. The Design Board is a proud member of Surround, a podcast network from Standout Design Group featuring the architecture and design industry's premier shows. Check it out at surroundpodcast.com.
Caroline Saba:
Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Design Board. I'm your host, Caroline, vice president of UpSpring. In this episode, we explore the importance of community reinvestment and the power of design to transform neglected spaces into vibrant, thriving places. Our case study is Bronxlandia, a locally led initiative in the South Bronx that aims to revitalize a neighborhood through the creation of talent retention infrastructure and high quality commercial third spaces. I'm joined today by Jay Valgora, founder and principal at Studio V Architecture, and Majora Carter, CEO of Majora Carter Group and Urban Revitalization Strategy and Real Estate Group Firm. Thank you both for being here today. Majora, I'd love to start with a little background into the topic for our listeners. Why is it important to reinvest in our communities and how can this contribute to economic and social development?
Majora Carter:
Thank you so much for having me first off, but the reason why we are really particularly interested in the work that we do is because we also work specifically in what we refer to as low status communities, and they're generally in the kind of communities that are referred to as poor, low income or underprivileged. And we use low status because status implies that something much larger is at work and that inequality is a well established fact. And you could see it in terms of the public health stats or the performance of schools or air and water quality, parks and trees, food options, career opportunities. They're worse than in other parts of the same town where you're in, and you know, you can think about the communities like that near you, whether inner cities or Native American reservations or white rust belt towns where industries come and gone.
But the one thing that we know is that bright kids who grow up in them are expected to measure success by how far they get away from them. And our approach to real estate development is all about creating a talent retention approach that recognizes that people from those low status communities are talented academically, creatively, you name it. And that we can create the right type of infrastructure through housing, economic development, third spaces, all of those things, so that people feel as though they can reinvest emotionally, socially, and also financially in their own communities rather than export their talent elsewhere.
Caroline Saba:
That's great. That gives us a really great overview and background. It sounds like a big feat too. So I'd like to dive into potentially what's some key challenges that communities might face when trying to reinvest and how might those be able to be addressed?
Majora Carter:
Some of the biggest challenges I think come from the fact that, whether it's the nonprofit industrial complex or even policy and elected officials, there's I think a sort of a through line when you talk about low status communities, that poverty in and of itself is part of the culture. And so if poverty is a cultural attribute, then you often see it in terms of the type of development that happens in those neighborhoods. And so I think that is one of the biggest issues that we are working against when we start talking about doing the type of development that makes people feel like their neighborhood is worth staying in when there's so much play that says to neighborhoods, to the people in neighborhoods like that, is that if you're going to be somebody you need to grow up and be somebody somewhere else because that's not where it happens here.
And you see it in terms of the kind of developments that happen. So whether it's very highly subsidized, only affordable housing for very low income levels, you'll see things like more health clinics. You'll definitely see things that make you, if you see economic developments. And you'll see plenty of them. You'll often wish that there were other places to spend your own money. You'll see things like 99 cents stores or dollar stores as the main retail option. And it really just sort of has the kind of architecture of a lack of hope.
And again, if you are academically or artistically inclined, often those people were led to believe that that place isn't for them. But if people were born and raised there and even got their starts in those communities, why aren't we creating the type of lifestyle infrastructure and economic infrastructure that makes people want to stay? And again, if we have philanthropy and the rest of the nonprofit industry and even our elected officials actually playing toward this idea that there's really only certain ways those communities need to be developed, then that's what we're often led to believe. But it's not part of our culture, it's simply the way that we've been treated and we are working against that every step of the way.
Caroline Saba:
Yeah, it sounds like a lot of puzzle pieces need to come together to make this happen. Jay, you're currently working with Majora and her team on the renovation of the former Hunts Point train station in the Bronx into a multipurpose event space called Bronxlandia. What inspired the creation of Bronxlandia and how does this vision support and provide greater value for the neighborhood?
Jay Valgora:
Well, Caroline, first I just want to thank you also for inviting me in. I'm really excited to do this podcast with Majora as a client, but also as someone who I'm inspired by. I mean, the first inspiration of all for me comes from the client, and I'm very serious about this. We cannot do good work without a good client, and being able to work with someone like Majora who really wants to make a change in her community is inspiring to me and to my team. So that's really the first place we start. We can't do good projects without good clients that want to create transformative design, and that's really what this is all about. I'd say there's two other inspirations that are related to that tie into some of the themes of Studio V's work. And I'm just so happy to be able to work on a project like this.
One is really combining old and new, and I mean that in many different ways. In the most obvious way, this is a wonderful old historic train station that it's remarkable that Majora was able to purchase it and to engage in this process of transformation. Original building by Cass Gilbert. We'll get into that later. It's an astonishing thing, but also really transforming that into something new and revealing each of the layers of that, the old historic layers, even some of the past with this site that Majora has kept and our new design that's going to add a new contemporary layer that's about the Bronx today. So for me, combining old and new and creating new things that are worthy of the history of a place is a big inspiration for us.
The last part would actually be place, because each of our projects, we do projects around the world. We do projects around New York City. I'm proud of the fact we do projects in all five boroughs. I think it's so exciting to do a project like this in the South Bronx, which is in a state of transformation today, and to be able to do something that grows out of the sense of place of this community and the culture there. And I think that's a third inspiration for me, is how something grows out of a place.
Caroline Saba:
I love that. I think that's a great perspective too. I think I feel the same way, the way design can transform communities and what that sense of place means. And you started to touch on the historic aspect a little bit. So built in 1908 and designed by Cass Gilbert, a famous historic American architect known for the Woolworth building and the US Supreme Court, the Hunts Point Rail Station has been a major fixture in the Bronx since its inception. So I'd love to hear both of your perspectives on the design process and how you work together to restore the former rail station into an event space.
Jay Valgora:
Well, first of all, dealing with the historic train station, Cass Gilbert, as many people know, is one of the great architects of New York. He did the Woolworth building, but many people don't know among the many other projects he did that he also really created a number of tremendous infrastructure projects that were transformative for communities, including he designed many different train stations. Now tragically, this train station went out of business right away, actually almost soon after it was completed. I think it went out of business in the thirties during the Great Depression, and it was transformed into a series of retail stores and it was kind of given up as a train station. Ironically, what's happening today is the MTA is building a new train station right behind this one. As a matter of fact, it's one of the first major infrastructure projects really happening in the Bronx and really happening where we're starting to invest back into public infrastructure again.
So what I think is so interesting for me as a process is the idea of taking this historic artifact, Majora looking at this and coming in and taking what was kind of a very simplistic retail space that was kind of just inhabiting and carved out in this beautiful old train station, coming in and kind of clearing that out and revealing it to be one big open space. And then how could we add a new layer that kind of tells the story of our time? So for example, we should have the historic layers of the original train station, both the original fabric and how we restore that. Majora has kept certain elements of the past where this place was a strip club, a chicken joint, but there's actually still elements of that where it did have its own life and vitality that kept some of the signage and elements of that.
But now we're creating a new design that's all about opening to the street, engaging the surrounding community, creating one big flexible space that could be used for all different kinds of events, whether it's films or marketplaces or events or concerts or music or anything really Majora sees fit almost as a community hub that now engages and opens to the street to Hunts Point Avenue. And so to me, this process of bringing the past and being respectful of that and restoring elements, telling the true story of it along the way and creating a new element that's of our time today that reflects the new South Bronx and this new community and what Majora is trying to achieve there. To me, the design process revealing each of those layers is the exciting part.
Majora Carter:
Yeah, it's so interesting because I got connected to Jay through a dear friend and another architect named Anthony Feldman, and it was super exciting because I was like, "Okay, sure, I'll meet with them." And then I'm watching Billions one night, that old Showtime show, and watching one of the characters at Empire Stores, which is this incredible structure out in Brooklyn, and it's just this beautiful, amazing backdrop and I'm just like admiring this building. And then I realized that it was Jay and Studio B that actually did the Empire stores, and this is the person who I'm about to meet and interview to transform my rail station. And it was such a real interesting moment because this station, it literally sits at the gateway of our entire community. I mean, it is this crazy little iconic structure. You can see it from all sorts of perspectives and it looks like nothing else in the neighborhood.
So everybody knows what it is, even from whether you're on the highway, whether you're walking. I mean, you can see it, and you knew that it was really an interesting building, even if you didn't know the history that it was done by one of America's first architects or anything like that. But it was also just so important for me to recognize that we did have this historic piece of beauty in our neighborhood that really did need to be lovingly restored by someone who knew exactly what they were doing because we actually absolutely have the idea to really use the space because it's got 17 foot high vaulted ceilings, and it's this big wide open space that we can fill with beautiful things like performances and pop-up shops and films and all sorts of wonderful things like that. But ultimately, we also knew that we were as much a part of history as any other community, and this was something that we wanted to preserve and protect and quite frankly, show off as well.
And I just find it really wonderful that we get a chance to do that with Jay and his team because they really are just exquisite to work with in so many ways. They love the building as much as we do, and it has just been awesome having the capacity to work with someone who sees not just the building as the building, but a little piece of history that we can carry forward. And to Jay's point a little bit earlier, it is a very personal piece of my own history as well, because it is literally the reason why my family settled in this community. My dad was a Pullman porter, which was before the car became king, and railroads were still actually real huge parts of the economy, Pullman porters were the Black men who worked on the trains, essentially servants and porters. And that with the line that the Hunts Point Rail Station was on was my dad's line, and he actually wanted to live in a neighborhood that was on his line.
And he won $15,000 in a horse race actually when he was actually doing temp work out in Los Angeles. He carried that back home on the train and literally walked up and down the neighborhood in Hunts Point to see if anybody was willing to sell the house to him or a house to him, because there was talk that they were going to reactivate the rail line again, or reopen it rather, and it didn't happen. But he did find a family who was willing to sell to a big old Black man, which was my dad. And because it was much harder, obviously, for Black people to get loans and mortgages back then, so he bought it for cash and raised several of my siblings in that house. So I'm really excited for that, and so I feel a connected piece of history as well.
Caroline Saba:
I love that. That's such a great story. It's interesting to hear how all of that weaves together too. And you both started to touch on this, but I'd love to learn more about, Jay, especially how your team worked closely with Majora and her team to ensure that the multipurpose event space reflected often unaddressed needs and aspirations of the community.
Jay Valgora:
Sure. Well, the building is so, in a way, complex. It seems simple, but the building itself is almost like, it is a bridge. It's actually a bridge built over the railway, and so it kind of looks like a normal building from the street, but if you actually study it and when you get into it, the entire building is built on a massive truss suspended over the street, and then they kind of built the street up to it and around it. So it looks like a normal New York City building when in fact, it's this really unusual piece of engineering. And then it has this massive roof that covers the whole thing, which is part of the big historic element. But the main space, as Majora said, is this beautiful vaulted space. And when they first came in, we even saw the photos because they had to tear all that out and kind of open it back up to this original central vaulted hall.
And there's something kind of wonderful about that where it becomes this singular space that just feels like a kind of space for possibilities. And when Majora first spoke to us, we're like, "Well, what do you want to do with it?" And sometimes I even have trouble describing it. Lately I've been calling it a community hub, because she might do film. We had to lay it out where you could have standing events, speaking events, music events, film, they could rent it out to people. They've done concerts there, they've done, and she'll describe, all kinds of crazy things. So the whole idea is that it has to be flexible for all different kinds of events you may want to do in there and to attract different people and to support different activities in the community. So I think there's something really exciting about that.
Then the design tries to respond to that. Because the original train station, even though it had this beautiful roof, this really exotic engineering structure, but it was kind of cut off from the street. Train stations really in the old days were kind of gating, if you will, it would be a gate point in order to allow you to go on the train if you paid. Now today, we want it to be something that engages the street, and so we created a much more open facade. Those original retail stores had really ripped off most of the historic facade on Hunts Point Avenue. And so instead of trying to recreate that facade, which was really gone except for the roof above, we decided to create a series of glass and steel openings where we could really open to the street and you could vary those openings to the street depending on the different kinds of events.
And we could take that big central vaulted space and really engage the community and the surrounding neighborhoods so that you could open all these doors up and have people flow right in if you wanted to do an open market, but you could also close certain of them and allow people to come in for other events like a film or for a concert. So we created this kind of permeable facade that allows you to open and engage or invite people in through different apertures to really engage the street. And that's how we tried to support Majora's vision for allowing a whole different range of uses. And I'm shocked by some of the stuff she's done in there. She could describe some of that, some of the amazing different kind of uses.
Majora Carter:
You know what? It's so interesting, but I never really thought of rail stations as gated, but you're absolutely right, and it's actually kind of poetic what we are trying to do and what your design, even though we've just been working on it in the condition that it's in, but ultimately that absolutely informed your design and vice versa. Because right now, Caroline, all we have is we just have the old roll down gates that were initially the same gates that separated the storefronts from the streets, and we ripped out everything on the inside, but we kept the actual roll down gates all there. And so depending on the event, we open up the gates. Sometimes the entire width of the building has all the gates open, if we're doing a pop-up market or something like that, or if there's some kind of a dance party, like an open dance party, which we've done during the summer. Or we'll close them if needed, if we're doing a film screening or if there's a private performance that needs to be shown, or even if there's a pro-wrestling event, which we've actually hosted several of at this point.
But it's really, it is about engaging and literally taking those barriers down and showcasing whatever is in that space to the degree that the event warrants it. And it's really just, I think, it's kind of poetic actually to think about it that we're literally through the design throwing open the gates, so to speak, to this space that was once really, you could only be in it to, in some way, shape or form pay to enter in this way. But it really has, and it's not to say that everything is totally free or whatever, and sometimes things do have a cost, but ultimately I think the permeability of the way the design works, it does invite participation of people that even see it. And I think that's what's very different about how this design is going to play out in reality, which is making me even more excited about it.
Jay Valgora:
Caroline, hopefully you're getting a sense. It's funny, sometimes even as I do these conversations with Majora, as we've started to do different things together, I find we're kind of learning from each other. I didn't know the story originally about Billions when she saw our project at Empire stores, which makes me think that's the first time we ever probably got a job through somebody watching that. And I think that's kind of great, actually. And on the other hand, as we work together on the project, I think we find, like with the best clients, we're kind of playing to each other's ideas and learning from each other. And the design only gets better, especially when the client's passionate about it and really cares about what they're creating and has a set of ideas that they really believe in. I think it's our obligation and responsibility to try to find a physical way to express that in their project.
Caroline Saba:
I think it's always really nice to hear two very passionate people talking about creating inspiring places and how that can create a ripple effect across the community. So I am really excited. I know I had a chance to look at some of the images and the renderings of the project so far, but just this project seems so powerful and I can't wait for it to be fully complete.
Majora Carter:
Me either.
Jay Valgora:
Yeah, we all feel the same way.
Caroline Saba:
I'm sure. A lot of blood, sweat and tears.
Majora Carter:
Yes.
Jay Valgora:
Definitely a passion project. Yeah.
Caroline Saba:
So like we're starting to talk about, projects like these are so important. So Majora, I'd love to hear your perspective on how community members can invest their own capital in local reinvestment projects, and why is that important?
Majora Carter:
Yeah, I mean, it's super important for us because in so many cases, people in low status communities like the South Bronx are often led to believe that things have to be done for them if they're ever to succeed in anything. And people, I think on some level we do succumb to this idea that we will always need to have our hand out in order to just survive. But I've realized that people really want to feel like they're involved. And I do also think it's super important from the perspective of helping people understand about things like generational wealth and financial management and financial literacy in their own lives. To be a part of investments in their own community is a big step, I think, toward people seeing themselves as agents of change in their own lives.
And so we're going to be taking full advantage of the Security Exchange Commission's new-ish rule that now people, they're called unaccredited or non-accredited investors because it used to be like after the stock market crash and everybody lost their shirts, investing in the stock market and also in real estate, the feds decided that only people over a certain income and with a certain amount of assets would be able to invest in real estate projects. And now, thanks to crowdfunding and various crowdfunding investment strategies, depending on your, or whoever's doing the deal, you can have people invest as little as $100 in various real estate projects or community economic development projects.
And we want to be able to do that because it'll also provide people the same amount, the rate of return as if they happen to be putting in $1,000,000. But it also, people will get an opportunity to see how these investments work because they get the same information as anybody else does. And hopefully that'll give people an opportunity to see how that process works, but also feel a part, that they're a part of the change in the investments that are making their neighborhoods better places to live.
Caroline Saba:
I love that. I think being part of the change is so important so that you can see and feel things come to fruition in front of your own eyes.
Majora Carter:
Yes, agreed.
Caroline Saba:
And then Jay, from your perspective on the design side, what role does design play in community reinvestment, and how can designers create spaces that meet frequently unaddressed needs to reflect their aspirations?
Jay Valgora:
Well, speaking more broadly, I think design is essential for helping build communities, invest in communities. And I feel really lucky about this because as architects in some ways you're beholden to the market, people have to hire you, but somehow, I think after a certain point, you can also start to attract projects or also even find opportunities within projects where you can create greater community benefits. So I mean, at Studio V, we've been pretty lucky. Some of them are in a sense, prominent or conventional. Like we've been working in the neighborhood of Astoria for, I've been working there almost 20 years, and I've designed now five waterfront parks, and it takes decades for them to be realized. Majora has started doing waterfront parks too, very complicated. But I've designed a whole series of them where I know they're going to be transformative for that waterfront, which was all former industrial spaces.
And one bit at a time, we're really transforming that whole waterfront into publicly accessible green space for the community. But sometimes it's unconventional spaces. At the moment, we're working on a project called The Underline, which is taking leftover space underneath highway ramps in Long Island City. Long Island City has one of the smallest percentages of open space of any community in New York City, and we're turning that into new open space and green space and public space with playgrounds and pickle ball courts and dog runs and seating and gardens, and then arts and sculpture garden. So I think it's possible to find unconventional spaces like we're doing here with Majora, an old ruin train station, but really make them major contributors to a community.
And I think a lot of times our work is really focused on finding those really unusual places, places that people don't normally look to. That's why this project in Bronxlandia is so much fun because it's so unconventional. Another project we're doing is Silo City where we're working with Rick Smith and Buffalo to convert the ruined grain elevators into an arts and cultural campus, but it's also going to have housing and maker spaces to help support that. So I think these are some of the opportunities for community investment. And if there's one thing that probably excites me the most about our work and the things that we get to do, it's those kind of projects where I feel we can make a difference and where they really will be transformative for communities.
Caroline Saba:
I think that's great. I think that's one of the things I love the most about the architecture and design community too. Like you're saying, the designer having the ability to transform a place or a space and the way people feel when intermingling in that space.
Jay Valgora:
I think at our best, the thing I'm most proud of when I take my kids out, when I go out with my wife and I see my family, if we can create spaces that will really be meaningful, that'll create meaning in people's lives, I think that's the greatest thing we can hope to achieve.
Caroline Saba:
That starts to touch on my next question too, Jay. I'd like to hear how the team address issues of talent retention, quality of life, and commercial viability in the design and implementation of the project, and what strategies were used to ensure that the community as a whole benefited?
Jay Valgora:
Well, this is one, Majora, this question might almost be more for you in a sense. My goal is to create a space that you can use in different ways, but I know this is something you talk about a lot, about retaining quality of life within your community, so hopefully we're just a vehicle to help you achieve that vision.
Majora Carter:
Yeah, definitely. I feel that working with Studio V has been incredibly helpful because they definitely listened to the fact that this really was going to be more than just sort of like a multipurpose community space, but it did have all of these aspects of historic preservation and this level of beauty and just everything that we wanted to pour into this thing, had to be addressed. Because literally at any given day, it could go from being the space for a pro-wrestling tournament. The next time around, or literally the next day, we could be doing a book signing for a really famous author like Tarana Burke, who's out there doing her thing. Or having performances or you name it, but still having it hold space for all of those things, but still be this extraordinarily designed space that made people know that they were in something amazing and completely different than what they've ever seen before and feel comfortable in it.
But I think having that level, that kind of relationship with our architect really made it seem more like a real labor of love, honestly, than just like, okay, there's this client that they have and there's this team I'm working with, because I really do think they understood what we were trying to do with this space.
Jay Valgora:
Thanks, Majora.
Majora Carter:
Thank you.
Caroline Saba:
I love it. What about lessons learned from the experience? Do either or both of you have any top one, two or three things that you really have taken away from the experience so far?
Jay Valgora:
Well, first of all, something I think that's become very important to me in this project, learning from the client, but also kind of applying what we know. I always believe a really successful project has to be both really, really pragmatic and really aspirational. And I think that's the great challenge for us in our work. And I think that's a lesson in this project where on the one hand, we have to get the most effect with the fewest resources. We have to be efficient and thoughtful and smart and pragmatic. And what's been really fun working with Majora and James also has been just finding solutions to things with this crazy building that's a former ruin train station that's a bridge over a street. So it requires extreme pragmatism. And on the other hand, it also requires aspiration. It requires thinking at the highest level, what do we really want to achieve with this?
How can we do something that's different? What are the simplest means we could bring to create something extraordinary? Whether it's the doorways to the street or finding the simplest way to restore the roof, or finding ways to bring in power or to deal with the crazy utilities to this old building. So these are some of the different things that we have to look at in order to find solutions. So to me, a lesson learned is how do we combine our highest aspirations with our greatest sense of can do pragmatism to find solutions that'll bring it to life.
Majora Carter:
Yeah, I think that's kind of it, because we really have to be, and we still are learning as we go because it is such a crazy little building that is challenging and on every single level. The fact that it's built over a bridge with active rail lines and how do you really work to create economically, even though there's all sorts of issues that we have to deal with. It's not so much how we can create more with less. It's really more about how do we develop new opportunities so that we can use the space in a really wonderful way and still have a tremendously fun time while we're doing it, because we are. But yeah, it was super challenging and honestly, if I thought about it early on, I'm not quite sure I would've done it, but.
Jay Valgora:
I'm glad you did.
Caroline Saba:
That's too funny.
Majora Carter:
What was I thinking? It's like, yeah, because I like a challenge. Yeah, I suppose. But it really has been, I think overall mostly just unbelievably rewarding, mostly because of the, because I get to see on a daily basis, you know, what it's like, even in its semi ruinous estate right now, people see the possibilities of what it means to have this little treasure redeveloped into something even more special.
Caroline Saba:
I find that really inspiring. And then I'd like to hear too, lastly, what advice you would both give to other developers who are looking to undertake similar projects, and what are some of the key factors to consider when planning a community reinvestment initiative like Bronxlandia?
Majora Carter:
Well.
Jay Valgora:
That's a tough one.
Majora Carter:
Really. Because again, but I really was joking when I said I wouldn't have done it. I would do it in a heartbeat and there's just no way I wouldn't. But it is super challenging and I would just expect people to understand what they're getting into, first and foremost. I don't think that this is any harder than I expected it to be, and in part because there's just also so because we've actively been able to use the space even while we are getting everything ready for its full final renovation. But if that's that, that has literally been our saving grace. That we were able to use the space so that people literally got to see how exciting it was. And that really has been helpful for me and honestly, because if it sat there shuttered this whole time while we were working to get it together, I don't think I would've been able to handle it.
I really don't think I would've. But I got to live off the fumes of the joy of other people around me and actually and also make a little bit of money while we were doing it as well, which of course all went right back into the project. So that has been really helpful. And I think that's what I would suggest to folks. Is there a way you can actually make some of the finances work for you while you're making this thing happen? Because that will also be the thing that helps you in the future.
Jay Valgora:
You may just want to end on that, because that was pretty good. I could add something, but I thought that was perfect.
Caroline Saba:
The mic drop moment. Okay. Amazing. Well, thank you both again for being here with me today. I think this is an incredible project, a powerful one, and good lessons learned too for anyone in the real estate community or in the architecture and design industry. So thank you both again for your thoughts and ideas and contributions to this conversation.
Majora Carter:
Thank you so much.
Jay Valgora:
And thank you, Caroline. And it's just fun to participate in something like this and also to be able just to talk about it and share it with folks.
Majora Carter:
Yes, definitely. Thanks again.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for listening in with us today. We hope you leave inspired by the ideas in today's episode. For more, follow UpSpring on LinkedIn and Instagram. And don't forget to check out the amazing lineup of shows brought to you by the Surround podcast network at surroundpodcast.com.