From Fashion to BHDM, Unveiling the Art of Versatile Spaces
Before launching multi-faceted interior design firm BHDM Design in 2012, Dan Mazzarini’s expertise in the industry was harnessed during his years spent in fashion and retail design with renowned brands like Ralph Lauren, Kate Spade, and Calvin Klein. Over the past 10+ years, he has built a team of talented design professionals who create evocative spaces that people want to be in, stay in, celebrate in, and live in - spaces that range from personal residences to commercial and healthcare offices, hotels, restaurants, model apartments and social clubs across the country. Join us in this inspiring episode as we explore Dan’s expertise in diverse design categories, pick his brain about the best practices to break into new industries, and chat about the ups and downs of launching into e-commerce just last year.
The Design Board, by UpSpring, is a proud member of SANDOW Design Group's SURROUND Podcast Network, home to the architecture and design industry’s premier shows.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to The Design Board, a podcast created by the team at UpSpring that focuses on design, development and everything in between. We invite innovators in our industry and explore topics that support your growth in every way. The Design Board is a proud member of SURROUND, a podcast network from SANDOW Design Group featuring the architecture and design industry's premier shows. Check it out at surroundpodcast.com.
Susan Fernandez:
Welcome everyone to The Design Board, a podcast by UpSpring that focuses on design, development and everything in between. We host innovators in our industry and explore topics that support your growth in every way. I'm your host, Susan Fernandez, and today I'm joined by Dan Mazzarini, owner and creative director of BHDM. Since launching BHDM Design in 2012, Dan has parlayed his craft of storytelling through the built environment to a multitude of project types, including hotels, restaurants, food halls, startups, corporate interiors, showrooms, pop-ups and single and multifamily residential. Dan and the BHDM Design team apply a hospitality-forward approach to all of their projects to create compelling and unique and applicable narratives and embed elements of surprise and delight throughout the user experience. Dan, welcome to The Design Board.
Speaker 2:
Thanks, Susan. Such a pleasure. So happy to be here.
Susan Fernandez:
We are so thrilled to have you. So can you walk us through your experience in fashion and retail design prior to launching BHDM?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so I got my start in, I'll say fashion, but it was really retail design. So as a graduate from Miami University in Ohio, I came to New York looking for the big design moment. I had a bunch of interviews and got one job offer, and it was the time just people weren't hiring. And it happened to be this amazing retail design company called Kramer Design Group. They hired me without a specific project, but you make a dollar and you can kind of do anything for that company for a while. And six months in they came to me and said, "We have a new client. He has two stores, but we're going to help grow him. His name is Michael Kors." And so at the age of 23, I helped to launch the Michael Kors brand by designing all the stores.
So this was heyday of retail, so every Macy's and Bloomingdale's and Saks and everywhere had stores that I designed in it. And it was an awesome kind of baptism by fire into design period. But what building a brand from sort of DNA perspective meant, like every nuance, every touch point, every decision fed into building a dream that was, at that time, Michael Kors. And it became a really fun, fast and formative part of my career. So launched Michael, worked on a bunch of different brands at this company. After three years, took a job with Ralph Lauren. I was in Ralph Lauren's store design for six years, which is really where I think I learned how to decorate. It was the study of every part and piece, the matting, the framing of the floral, kind of all that stuff.
But this sort of participation in fashion influences interiors all the time. And having worked with so many through the years, I see how different brands, different aesthetics, different dreams, if we can call it that, are ways that I still use to relate to all of our different kinds of customers. So it's been a fun ride at the beginning and we take that forward into what we do now.
Susan Fernandez:
And that's really interesting. You have to kind of take two brands. It has to feel like Michael Kors, but it has to feel like Michael Kors in Saks or in Macy's. So interesting how both those brand narratives play into that design so it's really seamless for the customer.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. We think about all those things, right? The phrase you said, shop in shop, is a really retail one for sure. But thinking about sort of an environment within an environment, you're creating all these little capsules, right, in a way? And it also speaks to scale. I always said we would design the Taj Mahal, which is the flagship store, and then you had to basically be able to turn that into a sweater table and a tee stand for the sort of shops for the majority of the country. So it was taking... When I mentioned DNA, like how do you take the DNA for a brand and distill it down into something that's still iconic or identifiable, relatable enough that you still want to buy that sweater because you see that sign or that thing in a store too. So it's a fun problem to solve for every brand.
Susan Fernandez:
It is. It's so exciting that you were so young and they handed that to you. And when you started working with Michael Kors, did you have any idea of just how fast that was going to grow? Did you feel it?
Speaker 2:
I didn't know anything about anything. Honest to God, I was, and I still am just a yes person. So I think I was saying yes to, "You want me to draw, tell me when to stop. You want me to do..." And I just was eager to finally get not a seat at the table, but get my voice in the room. And so I didn't know how quickly it was going to grow. One of the smartest things that company did was align him on Project Runway as they were relaunching him into the stratosphere. But I got to know him a little bit. And I have to say, it was so fun to design stores for him because he is as nice in person as he was on that show.
Susan Fernandez:
That's great.
Speaker 2:
Just the same person. And that made it really, really fun. And he knew who his customer was above all else, like is a designer, but he knew that woman. He knew how she shopped. He knew if she was in LA she was maybe traveling and wanted to buy the whole outfit together. So I remember him coming into a store... We did his Rodeo store once. And he came in, and he took a hanger that had a sweater on it, and he put a jacket over it and then this mink scarf around it. And he goes, "This is how you should put it in the rack because this is how she's going to buy it. Show her everything at once." So it was this great mix of design, yes, and iconography with his encyclopedic knowledge of all things fashion, but also in merchandising and how you think about that user experience and who they are and how they do it. So another way that we kind of take that forward in our work too. I could tell these stories all day.
Susan Fernandez:
Oh my gosh, that's fascinating. And it's really interesting because Michael Kors, I feel like, there is just such a definite it's for you or it's not for you. There's no confusion there. There's no blurred lines.
Speaker 2:
I think it's interesting because he is now such a household name, right?
Susan Fernandez:
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:
Anybody's going to know. He's everywhere, and it's a great, great brand. When we started, I, like the young homo from the Midwest, knew Michael Kors from fashion television. So when I got to start to work on this account, I knew him for all of his Americana fashion. And it's interesting, I think working with him so young, for me, I can look back... I can look at how we design now, how I dress now, what my homes look like now. And I see a lot of that early influence of working with that brand in what we do still. So it all becomes sort of like the building blocks of who you are as a designer, for sure.
Susan Fernandez:
That's really interesting, Dan. I'm curious as how you were able to build that Michael Kors experience or any of your fashion brands within another brand. So Macy's has a brand, Saks has a brand. How do you do that as a designer? How do you make that experience seamless for a customer?
Speaker 2:
Yeah. Very carefully is the answer. I think when you're working with two brands at once, it speaks to the owner-operator, the owner sort of brand relationship that we experience now in our hospitality world. And it's sort of marrying the two is an important part of the designer's responsibility, I think. And so in the instance of Michael Kors, it was classic Americana, but Saks wanted to look different than Bloomingdale's, wanted to look different than Macy's. And so you had to sort of get with them and say, "Okay, within this palette, how do we take these finishes and work with you and these finishes and work with you?" And everybody wanted a little bit of bespoke. And so how do you speak to each of those locales and give everybody a little bit something different? It's definitely a part of what I learned in retail, and I think that notion of differentiation, even for a singular brand at multiple outlets, it's something we pull forward into the different kinds of work that we do now.
Susan Fernandez:
It's really insightful that this immersion shaped your career in so many ways. So what made you decide it was time to take a leap of faith and start your own firm?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mean it wasn't right after that first job. I went to Ralph Lauren for six years, and that was another incredible, really formative place to work. Going from working with Michael, but a lot of different brands, to one brand, which is Ralph, everything was so specific and meticulous, and learning all these vendors, all these incredible people that I was there with. But I was always interested in working in lots of different what I call visual vocabularies. I want to stay interested in everything, and I need that kind of constant stimulation as a designer. And so I ended up picking up side work. I would work 9:00 to 5:00 at Ralph or 6:00 at Ralph, and then I would take another work and work 6:00 to 11:00 on... It was a house and sketches for a house somebody saw and said, "Will you work with me on a restaurant?" And somebody learned which restaurant it was, and it led to a first hotel project in Miami.
And it's interesting, that hotel project was kind of what flipped the script because in doing that and kind of taking on a bunch of work at once, it was like, I'm not dedicated either, and I got to figure out what to do. My hotel client actually, we were having dinner one night and he said, "When do you make the leap? When are you going to do it? Because you kind of have this business, but you're kind of just half doing it." And I said, "Well, it's really scary. What if I don't make any money? What if I don't want to make clients?" And he's like, "Yeah, what if that happens?" And I'm like, "Well, that would be really bad, Brian." His name is Brian.
And he said, "Do you know what you'll do, Dan? You'll go get another job." And I was like, "Oh, aha. There's a built-in safety net." I'm hardworking and I desire to do a lot of good work and people like working with me, but if this doesn't work out, that's still something that I can fall back to. And so sensing that there was a safety net removed a little bit of the fear. And so after that I took the leap and left Ralph, and the rest is just a cakewalk, just super simple.
Susan Fernandez:
Well, it's interesting to me because 80% of designers do go out on their own, so there must be some type of entrepreneur-
Speaker 2:
Is that a real stat?
Susan Fernandez:
That is a real stat.
Speaker 2:
Really?
Susan Fernandez:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
Huh, I didn't know that.
Susan Fernandez:
Yes. So if you think about it-
Speaker 2:
I feel so much less special now, Susan.
Susan Fernandez:
Oh no. But I don't think a lot of them survive it. They try it, but I don't know that they survive it. But if you think about that, there must be something entrepreneurial that designers have that sort of fits in with what you're doing, that love of something new that you are talking about, that wanting to be stimulated and really hardworking and really experience everything. Wise words, appreciate those
Speaker 2:
Wise words. Yes.
Susan Fernandez:
So now you've got fashion and retail. Walk me through that a little bit more. So you've got fashion and retail. How does that translate to a hotel? How does that translate to a residence? What's that line that goes through?
Speaker 2:
Great question. There's a simple answer, which I think storytelling is storytelling no matter the format. And so when you're working with a fashion brand, you're building, in the words of Devil Wears Prada, which is our second reference to that, Susan today, right, you're building a piece of iconography that people want to own. When you're building someone's home, I always ask, "What's the story you want to tell the world? Do you want to be an Anglophile? Do you want to live at the coast but you live in Columbus? What's the dream that we can try to build together?" And so it all becomes about storytelling. We use overuse this word about authentic, but I think for me, there's a real joy in helping people listening and helping people identify what it is that they're really asking for or really want, and then bringing that vision to life.
So the through line on all of these things is number one, storytelling. Number two, I think there's about scaling businesses and understanding scale and understanding scaling to market that I definitely learned in retail. And you build the Taj Mahal and then you take it down, and so you got to do this 1500 times. That's pretty much a hotel. You design a model room, not to oversimplify, but then you multiply it out. There's a almost mathematical equation to some of these things. So how do you tell the story, and then how do you replicate the story so everybody can enjoy it? Those are the two kind of through lines for sure. And then the rest, my point of view is if you like to design and you're a good designer, the skills are transferable. The things that you learn become applied knowledge. So how do you take retail and spin that into hotels? I just talked about some of it, but you got to think of the ways that you bring strength to new projects or project typologies that are benefits for you and your team and your clients.
Susan Fernandez:
Well, given that, which is beautiful, because those are two things that people can really understand, so you've got this business. You've got this strong foundation in fashion retail. You are taking a lot of the lessons that you're learning from these designers. I like the notion that Michael Kors was more your ability to understand that brand and translate it, whereas Ralph Lauren had a much more stricter, refined palette parameters, which I think can also bring our best creative work, less options we have. So I can see how that could translate to residential and hospitality. But eventually you've started to take on other projects into spaces like healthcare. What made you decide to take those on? Because I feel like there's a lot of designers, they plant a flag. I am residential, I am commercial, I am hospitality, I am healthcare. You're kind of running the gamut. So how do these come up?
Speaker 2:
Make up your mind, Dan, make up your mind. Right?
Susan Fernandez:
No, it's fantastic. I mean, I think healthcare looks to hospitality, so that makes some sense to me. But as a designer, how do you make that decision like, "Oh, this is interesting, I'm going to do it"?
Speaker 2:
Yeah. Before healthcare, one of our sort of weirdest projects of a guy coming from retail was a law firm. I mean, approached by a law firm 12 years ago. And in talking to them, I was like, "Tell me more." And they were like, "We're just not that kind of law firm." They wanted to be this quote, unlawful kind of category. And they had flipped a business model on their head. And I bring this up because I think what I get attracted to from clients in healthcare is many of these are startups or companies who are looking to be disruptors in an industry that has been status quo for a while. And this is not a dig at any design, but for me, the projects in healthcare that I've gotten interested in are ones where they're looking for us, VHDM, to not just help them with what it looks like, but what is the user experience.
And so the role as a designer is much more of a partner in thinking about their business than it is to say, "Let's pick durable finishes that are sneeze-proof or whatever." We worked in primary concierge medicine with One Medical. We worked with a company called Real, which was in mental health. We worked with Tend, which is dental. We worked with a pet company. We work in all these different spaces. But at the end of the day, they're all looking for ways that, number one, they can help their patient. But number two, they're looking for us as the design team to say, "Let's think and push back on the user experience."
So you're right, I think healthcare always wants to be hospitality-forward in its approach. It's interesting to me now how many of our hospitality projects, maybe not healthcare, but want a wellness approach to what we're doing too. As somebody who naturally gravitates for lots of different kinds of work, I see more and more... The more we do, the more I'm like, "Oh, this is all interrelated." So you kind of bring that experience from one thing to another, for sure.
Susan Fernandez:
As we spend so much of our life indoors, it is interesting to see that both homeowners, and of course, businesses or commercial settings, are really looking to make that indoor experience as focused on our wellbeing and health as possible. You've worked across so many different types of industries. You have a loyal community of clients. Was there a particular category that felt like a really big challenge for you to break into?
Speaker 2:
Great question. All of these business segments, they appear so big, and yet they're small communities. Everybody in retail in New York has worked with everybody else in retail, and this person goes there and there. And it's the same in hospitality. But I think because I got my start in retail, when we started in hospitality, I didn't know anybody. I'd never done it. I'd never worked in that kind of office before. And there's something to be said for training, and I'll say an expertise, but certainly experience that you've built in any one kind of category. So for me, hospitality is one that it's taken us a minute to, not find our footing because I think we're good at designing it, but find our community there.
Gratefully, we've been well received by clients and media and now friends through our vendors, and it's just taken a while. And I think, like you said, the past three or four years of pandemic and post-pandemic and people sort of like, "Am I traveling for work? Am I not? Am I needing to do this renovation or not?" It's been an interesting time to try to bolster that part of our business, but we're doing it. And it's something that we've also leaned on our senior leadership team to be more visible and out there with people so that they see sort of the breadth of the team too. But that's always a fun challenge. You have to like people in this business. I mean, you know this, Susan. You have to people because at the end of the day, it's all about relationships. And so I think those relationships are certainly strong now, but it's taken a while for us to find our footing there.
Susan Fernandez:
I think that the case for good design in hospitality is so strong. Just the data shows that a well-designed boutique hotel is going to be able to command a bigger fee per room. People tend to have a bigger in-room spend. So they're ordering room service, they're staying at the bar, they're maybe going to the spa. And the room is almost becoming the destination sometimes.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I think for me, my experience has been to look at that lots of different ways, different clients, different ownership groups, certainly value different parts of the user experience. One of the terms I learned in the past two years was the bleisure consumer, somebody who comes for business and stays for leisure. I was like, well, that's me. I'm a bleisure and I didn't even know it. But it puts value in different real estate of the property, like you mentioned, the guest room. Often the goal is to get them out of the room, be part of the community of the people staying here. And that was really hard over the past couple of years. But it's been fun to work with different ownership groups in different brands who value different parts of the experience in different ways.
And this I think goes back to why that healthcare startup or retail or really any kind of project that's different and cares about the user journey is exciting to me because it's about asking these questions. What are these unlocks? Where's the value? Not financial value, but the emotional value for a consumer in a space. And how do we exceed those expectations when somebody comes?
Susan Fernandez:
More and more hotel guests want to know the origin and have access to some of the products that they experience, whether it is the sheets on the bed, a lamp, some artwork. Whatever it may be, they want to know about it. And you have a venture launching your e-commerce blog-zine... blogazine?
Speaker 2:
Blogazine. You heard it here first, yeah.
Susan Fernandez:
Blogazine, okay. ARCHIVE. And so is that where that experience came from? Why did you decide to launch this?
Speaker 2:
I think it's a combination. Well, the real answer is I always liked playing store as a kid with my twin sister. And since then I'm like, "Oh, wouldn't it be great to have a store?" The reality of being a merchant and owning all this inventory and shipping it out, that's a lot of work. I've seen it working in retail for years. Not everything comes in looking perfect as it does when it goes out, and there's a lot there, but I still want to do it. So I took a step in the right direction, and through the encouragement of others, we've actually started ARCHIVE. When we say blogazine, it is meant to be educational. I have written 170 articles this year. Isn't that wild?
Susan Fernandez:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
He's a writer too, Susan. But kind of this educational why or how to articles from a designer POV on why are these the best white sofas? Why should you buy these sheets at different price points? But it's an affiliate-based launch right now where we're making recommendations to people, but the system is working. I mean, ultimately we want to do product. And so people are seeing this, and gratefully, people are reacting to it. And so I think it comes from that childhood notion of wanting to play store, but also working in retail for so long, and as you're saying, now working in hospitality, and understanding that you want to take part of that experience home with you.
Listen, I know that interior design for residential and elsewhere is a luxury. Not everybody can afford interior designer. So this, I sort of feel is my opportunity to say, take some of what I know and apply it to your life. Take some of my best tips or tricks or discounts or whatever these things are and use them. And so it's been a really fun experience to get ARCHIVE up and running and be sort of the virtual merchant, I guess, that I've always wanted to be.
Susan Fernandez:
The education aspect to it is just huge because you're really giving a voice to help people understand why it is the best and the context. Because we are in a 3D physical world, but the average person really never is taught the difference between why one texture is better than the other. How does it feel against your skin? What is going to look like in the light? That educational aspect is absolutely huge. So where do you feel in this that you really thrive? Are we going to see a line that is just exclusive to you? Are we-
Speaker 2:
Well, let's start manifesting now, Susan, right?
Susan Fernandez:
Yes, I'm in.
Speaker 2:
That sounds great. We really do want to do product. People sometimes ask, "What's the goal with BHDM? How big do you want to be?" And my answer is always, "We don't want to grow just to grow. We want to grow to do better projects. I want to get better work for our team that keeps them interested." And ARCHIVE is an extension of that for me. So for years, I mean, Michael Kors, Ralph, Lauren, I was designing all the furniture for those stores oftentimes. So it's a natural transition for me to start to think about doing that kind of product from my POV for my direct audience. And it's been a fun challenge, Susan, for somebody who has built the dream and the narrative for other brands for 20 years. Now, when people turn around, and often they'll ask a designer, "What's your style?" And I'm like, "That's tough. It's so many things."
It's been a fun inflection point and reflection point for me to think about what our brand is, what is the story I want to tell the world with this? And so to answer you, yes, we want to do product, and until we do, I'm bringing sort of my favorite curated things to you, so at least it's our point of view. And thank you for shopping, Susan. I know you are.
Susan Fernandez:
As a business owner, it is interesting to me that growth to you or satisfaction in your business sounds like it's in the variety and the quality of work rather than the number of staff or other ways that people tend to measure their business. This is how much we did this year. These are the clients we worked with. For you, it seems to take on much more of a, "Is it interesting? Is it good? Is it challenging work?"
Speaker 2:
Yeah. I am the lucky recipient I think of being in the right place at the right time and getting some good inspiration or insight from people along the way. I've told this story a hundred times, but you're going to hear it too. I had an uncle that I interned for, and he was a doctor. And at the end of the summer he said, "So what do you think, kiddo? Do you want to be a doctor?" And I was like, "I could be a doctor. My mom's a nurse. I'm a good student, pretty smart guy." And he was like, "Do you want to be a doctor?" And I was like, "Oh..." And he's like, "Let me give you advice. Do something well enough that you would do it for free, and then do it well enough so that people pay you." And I was like, "I don't want to be a doctor."
It turns out that's not the thing. But design was something that I felt really compelled to then. And it was something that I was through school and then through first jobs, as you heard, and through kind of all this lived experience, it's something that I happily pour my whole self into and bring other people along as part of that participation and experience as well. And so it's that kind of ethos that I started BHDM with and that we approach all our projects with. The thing I tell my team is I want people to like the work we do, like working on our team, and like working on these kinds of projects. And so for me, you're right, it hasn't been this sort of straight trajectory of this project led to this, led to this. Some might say, am I motivated by the bottom line? No. Am I motivated by the echelon of project? No. I want to do work that's interesting.
And I know that I'm hiring creatives. One of my key obligations is to keep them invested in their work because that is how I found that I get the best product from them, and at the end of the day, something that we're all excited and proud of. So a different way to own a business and a different way to get into new business segments. But for me, it's been about following the dream and things that I would just love to do and then being pretty strong in pursuing those things as far as the typologies that we're interested in.
Susan Fernandez:
That's a perfect setup for my next question.
Speaker 2:
Oh, good.
Susan Fernandez:
There are 20-year-old or 21-year-old Dans out there who are just starting their career. They want to break into new industries. They want to just have this beautiful evolution that you've had. What advice do you have for them today?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, number one, I always say be flexible in your vision. I didn't anticipate to start in retail, but it was such a foundational thing that has fed every kind of work that we do now. So be flexible in your vision for your career. Start with yes. Right? I think starting with yes is a really powerful thing because I think that it teaches you... You can always change course, but if you close the door on something, that opportunity goes away. Start with yes. And it could be a yes and, but lean into opportunities when they come your way. And I am saying this to myself at 43 as much as I am to me at 22, be a good self-promoter of the work that you do, of the people that you surround yourself with, and for me, of the kind of work that you want to do.
I was on a panel last weekend, and a very smart woman said a line that "The work you accept today becomes your portfolio of tomorrow." And I was like, isn't that, number one, accurate, but so smart? And so be flexible. Be a go-getter, and be a good self-promoter and sort of protector of what you want your vision and narrative to be. Because at the end of the day, at some point you'll turn around and your career makes a lot of sense in hindsight. And do what you can to kind of direct it along the way.
Susan Fernandez:
That's beautiful. I really love that. I think too many people have a vision for themselves and then exclude these possibilities. And with the luxury of time, you can see how things that you say yes to can really pivot and expand your life in a way that you've never thought possible.
Speaker 2:
Yes. And Susan, if you think that I'm not going to describe aging as the luxury of time from now on, I'm stealing that from this podcast, I'll tell you what.
Susan Fernandez:
Oh my gosh, it's so good. No one tells you-
Speaker 2:
How old are you? My luxury of time is 43 years, yes.
Susan Fernandez:
Let me tell you, wait til you hit your fifties. It's the best kept secret. Nobody tells you how great it is.
Speaker 2:
Awesome.
Susan Fernandez:
All right, so what is next for BHDM Design?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, everything at once. I mean, it's sort of that movie, right? Everything Everywhere All at Once. We are gratefully growing. We're growing in segments that we've worked in and some new segments. We are continuing to expand ARCHIVE. And I kind of hinted at there are some exciting product partnerships coming up, so stay tuned for our next podcast, Susan, where we'll talk about that, right? And it is a fun inflection point for the business. We've been in business for 11 years, and it is fun for me to see now our leadership team who's been here for that long too, to see them growing and getting recognized amongst peers and the industry. And so I see a lot of potential for the entire company to continue to grow in work that we like to do and in places that we have yet to work. So more to come.
Susan Fernandez:
Very exciting. Thank you, Dan. This has been absolutely fascinating. Your enthusiasm is infectious. I love your can-do attitude. I love how approachable you are for someone who has done so well in this industry and could really just rest on what they've done. You're out there really being challenged every day. I look forward to what comes next. And if a listener would like to get in touch with you, how can they do that?
Speaker 2:
Well, thank you for that, by the way, Susan. I'm glad this is recorded. I'm sending that to my mom.
Susan Fernandez:
I'll call her.
Speaker 2:
Please do that. Yeah, so Instagram is my only zero inbox. It's the best way to do it. I'm @danmazzarini. Our company is @BHDM. Our other company is @archivebydanmazzarini. So message me on any of those, and I will happily get back to you.
Susan Fernandez:
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:
Thank you.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for listening in with us today. We hope you leave inspired by the ideas in today's episode. For more, follow UpSpring on LinkedIn and Instagram, and don't forget to check out the amazing lineup of shows brought to you by the SURROUND podcast network at surroundpodcast.com.